Who are Dalits?

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Who are Dalits?

Introduction

India's caste system assigns individuals a certain hierarchical status according to Hindu beliefs. Traditionally, there are four principal castes (divided into many sub-categories) and one category of people who fall outside the caste system—the Dalits. As members of the lowest rank of Indian society, Dalits face discrimination at almost every level: from access to education and medical facilities to restrictions on where they can live and what jobs they can have. The discrimination against the Dalits is especially significant because of the number of people affected; there are approximately 167 million Dalits in India, constituting over 16 percent of the total population.

Within the Dalit community, there are many divisions into sub-castes. Dalits are divided into leather workers, street sweepers, cobblers, agricultural workers, and manual "scavengers". The latter group, considered the lowest of the low and officially estimated at one million, traditionally are responsible for digging village graves, disposing of dead animals, and cleaning human excreta. Approximately three-quarters of the Dalit workforce are in the agricultural sector of the economy. A majority of the country’s forty million people who are bonded laborers are Dalits. These jobs rarely provide enough income for Dalits to feed their families or to send their children to school. As a result, many Dalits are impoverished, uneducated, and illiterate.

Dalits have been oppressed, culturally subjugated, and politically marginalized.  The principals of untouchability and “purity and pollution” dictate what Dalits are and are not allowed to do; where they are and are not allowed to live, go, or sit; who they can and cannot give water to, eat with, or marry; extending into the minutia of all aspects of daily life. 

Moreover, discrimination for Dalits does not end if they convert from Hinduism to another religion.  In India, Islam, Sikhism, and Christianity (among other religions) maintain some form of caste despite the fact that this contradicts their religious precepts.  As a result, dominant castes maintain leadership positions while Dalit members of these religions are often marginalized and flagrantly discriminated against.  For example, Dalit Christains are provided seperate burial areas from non-Dalit Christains.

The origins of the caste system

The word Dalit—literally translating to “oppressed” or “broken”—is generally used to refer to people who were once known as “untouchables”, those belonging to castes outside the fourfold Hindu Varna system.  According to the 2001 census, there are some 167 million Dalits (referred to in the census as “Scheduled Castes”) in India alone, though there are tens of millions in other South Asian countries, as well.

The caste system finds its origin in functional groupings, called varnas, which have their origins in the Aryan society of ancient northern India. In their creation myth, four varnas are said to have emanated from the Primeval Being. The Creator’s mouth became the Brahman priests, his two arms formed the Rajanya warriors and kings, his two thighs formed the Vaishya landowners and merchants, and from his feet were born the Shudra artisans and servants. Later, there developed a so-called “fifth” varna: the Untouchables.

This caste system became fixed and hereditary with the emergence of Hinduism and its beliefs of pollution and rebirth. The Laws of Manu (Manusmitri), which date roughly to the 3rd century A.D.—and parts of which form the Sanskrit syllabus of graduation studies in Gujarat even today—preach the sanctity of the varnas and uphold the principles of gradation and rank. They refer to the impurity and servility of the outcastes, while affirming the dominance and total impunity of Brahmins. Those from the “lowest” castes are told that their place in the caste hierarchy is due to their sins in a past life.  Vivid punishments of torture and death are assigned for crimes such as gaining literacy or insulting a member of a dominant caste.  Among the writings of Hindu religious texts, the Manusmitri is undoubtedly the most authoritative one, legitimizing social exclusion and introducing absolute inequality as the guiding principle of social relations.

Forced exclusion and constant oppression

Today, Dalits make up 16.2% of the total Indian population, but their control over resources of the country is marginal—less than 5%. Close to half of the Dalit population lives under the Poverty Line, and even more (62%) are illiterate. Among the Dalits, most of those engaged in agricultural work are landless or nearly landless agricultural laborers. The average household income for Dalits was of Rs. 17,465 in 1998, just 68% of the national average. Less than 10% of Dalit households can afford safe drinking water, electricity and toilets, which is indicative of their deplorable social condition. Moreover, Dalits are daily victims of the worst crimes and atrocities, far outnumbering other sections of society in that respect as well. The vast majority of these crimes remain unreported due to omnipresent fear, and those that are reported are often ignored by police or end up languishing in the backlogged court system.  Between 1992 and 2000, a total of 334,459 cases were registered nation wide with the police as cognisable crimes against SCs.

More than 60 years after gaining Independence, India is still very much afflicted by the cancer of the caste system. Dalits remain the most vulnerable, marginalized and brutalised community in the country.

Dalits in Gujarat

If compared to states like Punjab, Himachal Pradesh or West Bengal where Dalits constitute more than 20 per cent of the population, Gujarat counts a fairly low proportion of Dalits. According to the 2001 Census, there are approximately 3.6 million members of Scheduled Castes in Gujarat, which represents 7.1% of the state’s total population. This relatively low figure is, however, inversely indicative of their miserable condition. More than 80 per cent of the Dalits in Gujarat are daily labourers, the majority of which are in the agricultural sector. Half of the SC population is landless or owns less than one acre of land, which forces them to work on dominant castes’ land in order to survive.

Because of this dependence and the quasi-inexistence of labour welfare in Gujarat, Dalits are subject to immense pressure and utter discrimination. Atrocities committed against them are a daily reality, with more than 4,000 cases reported in the span of 3 years in just 14 districts. Manual scavenging is still very much prevalent also, the State’s institutions in Gujarat themselves employing Dalits to clean dry latrines. For a State that likes to depict itself as a modern and thriving region in India, Gujarat is still a far cry away from ensuring social justice to all of its citizens. In reality, Gujarat has a poor human rights record and must extend and focus its attention to its minorities if it is to be worthy of the kind of image it likes to give itself.

The government of Gujarat has implemented certain policies designed to uplift those belonging to the Scheduled Castes into higher positions.  The most prominent is the reservation system, where certain seats in the government are set aside only for Dalits.  In Gujarat, 7% of seats in the government and education sectors are reserved for Dalits (as opposed to 14% set aside on the national level).  This amounts to 2 of the 26 Members of Parliament (MP) and 13 of the 182 Members of Legislative Assemblies (MLA) currently held by members of the SC.  There are also established reservation systems in place at the district, block, and village levels throughout the state.

Even with this promise of upliftment through reservation, Dalits continue to be discriminated against throughout Gujarat.  The number of atrocity cases against Dalits and the practice of untouchability continue to occur at alarming rates throughout the state, especially when compared to other Indian states.

Dalits in other South Asian Countries

India’s caste system finds corollaries in other parts of the sub-continent, including Nepal, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. Indeed, as Hinduism spread from northern India to the southern part of the peninsula establishing itself as the dominant religion by the pre-Christian era, so spread the caste system and its ideology justifying the superior standing of the system’s aristocracy. Caste even migrated with the South Asian diaspora to firmly take root in East and South Africa, Mauritius, Fiji, Suriname, the Middle East, Malaysia, the Caribbean, the United Kingdom, and North America. Nevertheless, Asia remains the continent with the largest share of Dalits. There are today in Asia well over 200 million men, women and children enduring near complete social ostracism on the grounds of their descent.

In both Bangladesh and Nepal, the types of discrimination faced by Dalits are very similar to those existing in India. Notions of purity and pollution are prevalent within society, social restrictions, and discrimination in access to public places or jobs are therefore commonplace. Nepal’s situation is noteworthy as not even a fringe of the 4.5 million Dalits (over 20% of the Nepalese population) has been able to significantly emancipate itself. With no affirmative action measures, there are practically no Dalits in Nepal’s legislative assemblies. The literacy rate of Nepalese Dalits is only around 10%, while that of Nepalese Dalit women is even lower. Over 80% of Nepal’s Dalits find themselves below the official poverty line; their life expectancy is not higher than 50 years.


In Pakistan, as well as in Sri Lanka (except Tamil regions), the caste system is somewhat less rigid in the sense that it does not hold any ritual pollution concepts. However, features such as social distance and restricted access to land are still very much a reality. Moreover, the Swat region in northern Pakistan also practices extreme forms of humiliation against Dalits, and especially Dalit women.

UP ‘Dalit’ Woman Dares To Fight Polls, Pays Terrible Price

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UP ‘Dalit’ Woman Dares To Fight Polls, Pays Terrible Price

Courageous fight

• Rajkumari fought Block Council polls from Shivgarh, Mirzapur
• The Dalit widow was persuaded by fellow women villagers to contest
• Her rival ‘threatened her to withdraw or be shamed & scarred forever’

Heavy defeat

• After Rajkumari won, her daughter was allegedly gang raped
• She named the rival’s brother and friend. She later killed herself
• Rajkumari is in shock and beginning to lose her mind, says brother

Rajkumari’s could have been an inspiring story for women everywhere. A Dalit widow working the fields and bringing up two children by herself, and earning the village’s respect – – to the extent that they persuaded her to contest polls to the Block Development Council.

But what should have been her crowning glory – winning from Shivgarh village in Mirzapur, Uttar Pradesh, against substantially rich and powerful rivals – turned into a nightmare.

Soon after Rajkumari won the polls, her 16-year-old daughter was allegedly gang raped by her political rivals. And when the police didn’t take any action and the accused returned to intimidate her, the girl, a class XI student, committed suicide.

The police say the postmortem has not established rape, but further medical analysis is being done to verify the allegations.

Rajkumari is in a state of shock. She has barely stepped out of her house. Her brother Rajkumar fears she may be beginning to lose her mind just “like her son who is mentally challenged”.

“She is going mad. She doesn’t eat or drink, expect what we compel her to eat. Since she isn’t going to work, we now depend on the villagers to help get an odd meal for our invalid mother and her son,” he says.

Made to suffer

The results of the election were announced on 14 December. Rajkumari says throughout the campaign, in which she was supported by most women of her village and eventually one of her rival women candidates, she kept receiving threats from another candidate.

“He kept telling me to withdraw my candidature and if I didn’t, he would do something to shame and scar me forever,” Rajkumari tells Catch at her home in Shivgarh, 25 km from Mirzapur town.

As most other people in the village, Rajkumari lives in a thatched mud house, which is open at one end. Set in the foot of the Vindhya hills, Shivgarh does not show any signs of urban development – working toilets, metalled roads, brick and mortar houses. Most people, including Rajkumari, are Behelias or Kohris, both sub-castes within the Dalit community.

She’s going mad like her son. She doesn’t eat or drink or go to work: Rajkumari’s brother

According to Rajkumari, the day the results were declared, Pappu and Bindu Behelia, brother and friend, respectively, of her poll opponent, threatened her to be ready for the consequences.


Then, on the night of 22 December, her daughter disappeared while the family was asleep. She was later found unconscious and bloodied, and was brought back by her uncle. When she regained consciousness, the girl said Pappu and Bindu had abducted and raped her.

The next morning, they took the girl, who had been bleeding through the night, to Padari police station after a government clinic refused to admit her until its staff received a go-ahead by the police.

The family spent the entire day at the police station, waiting for the SHO to turn up and register the case. The girl had turned so pale from the ordeal that a policeman asked whether she was suffering from jaundice.

Rajkumari says she told him it wasn’t jaundice. “Rape hua hai, sir.”

Her brother says the SHO didn’t turn up till late in the evening. “And when he came, he threw us out and told us to return the next morning. We then went to a private clinic where they gave her some injections.” So all medical attention that the alleged victim of a gang rape received in 24 hours was probably some morphine to ease her pain.

Rajkumari says all this while her daughter kept telling her, “Amma inse darna mat. Ladte rehna. Inko fansi par latkaana (Don’t be afraid of these people. Keep fighting. See that they are hanged).”

The next evening, the accused came to Rajkumari’s house with some other people. “They said, ‘why don’t you forgive these boys’. They said things like this happen. That there was no need to escalate this matter to the police and court,” says Rajkumari’s father Ramdhan.

The girl, extremely weak by now, was furious. “She told them, ‘how dare you come to my house after raping me and threaten my family’, but they shouted her down,” Rajkumari recalls.

The girl ran out of the house. She had grabbed rope on her way out but the family didn’t connect the dots then. Her mother thought she was going to a friend’s place or to relieve herself.

Not long after, the family found the girl hanging from a tree near her friend’s house. There was no time to resuscitate her.

Shared sorrow

Rajkumari isn’t the only victim of this tragedy.

Almost every woman in the village shares her trauma. Ask any of them about Rajkumari’s daughter and this how most of them respond: “I can tell you that the girl wasn’t of bad character “.

The women are furious over suggestions that the girl was responsible for her own fate.

We had mustered the courage to stand up on our own. Now we have gone 50 steps back: Murali, villager

Soon after the incident, rumours about the girl’s “licentious nature” were spread in the area. It was even said that was actually the “mistress” of the alleged rapists.

The rumours were fuelled by the postmortem report denying rape, and the police claiming that the doctors had found few injury marks on her body.

“I have known the girl since her birth. She spent most of her time laughing and dancing around the village. Didi [her mother] broke stones and worked as farm labourer and helped us during tough times,” says Murali, a villager who had campaigned for Rajkumari during the election.

Is the girl’s death a setback to her and other women who had worked to get one of them elected to the BDC?

“Hausla to kam hota hi hai. Itna saahas karke hum aage badhe thay. Ab pachaas kadam peeche ho gaye,” Murali replies. “It is, of course, dispiriting. We had mustered the courage to stand up and walk on our own. Now, we have gone 50 steps back.”

Asked about the postmortem report denying rape, Rita, who is close to Rajkumari’s family, says, “So do you think any girl would be so shameless she would go out in the fields and strip? That she would injure herself and then hang herself for no reason?”

Bandana, who like Rajkumari also works in the farms for a living, says, “Ladki ki koi galti nahi thi. Lekin dekho uske saath kya hua. Ab ye hamare saath bhi ho sakta hai. Darr lagta hai. Tum kyun hamari aawaaz dabaane mein lage hue ho?”

“The girl was not at fault at all. But see what happened to her. And it could happen to us as well. We are scared. Why are you hell bent on suppressing our voice?”

Bandana, Murali, Rita as well as Bachani, Lalita, Manju, Prama and many other women, and men, feel wronged not only by the alleged rapists but by the state as well.

State of confusion

The police has yet to decide whether the girl was raped or not. Initially, the police was hesitant to arrest the two accused whom the girl had named. But after the story of the alleged gang rape and suicide appeared in newspapers, they were booked for gang rape and abetment to suicide as well as under sections of POCSO Act, which deals with crimes against children.

The state police have also suspended the SHO who, Rajkumari claims, had refused to take any action.

Other than this, all that the state has done is order inquiries. A magisterial inquiry was ordered by the District Magistrate of Mirzapur, but its objectives were vague and the deadline has been pushed further constantly. The police has ordered an enquiry against the SHO, which has so far come to nothing.

Meanwhile, the swab samples of the girl have been sent to a forensic lab in Lucknow. Arvind Sen, SP, Mirzapur, says, “It isn’t clear whether the girl has been raped or not. The final report of her forensic tests have to come from the Chief Medical Officer. At the moment, this is all we can say.”

And this is what the DM, RK Singh, has to say about what his enquiry is actually meant to probe: “The scope of this probe is very vast. We are looking at all aspects of the case. It is a holistic probe. We will find out how the crime took place, why she hung herself.”

But shouldn’t the probe have been concluded within a week? “I extended the probe because it demanded more attention and time. It will be finished within the next three days. That’s when you should get in touch with me.”

It isn’t clear whether she was raped. I’m waiting for forensic test results: Mirzapur SP Arvind Sen

Her daughter was the only hope Rajkumari, who lost her husband to alcoholism a couple of years into the marriage, had for a comfortable retirement. The girl had also promised to seek better treatment for her mentally-challenged brother.

“She would tell me, ‘mother don’t get me married any time soon’. I want to study and earn for my family. She was full of hope for us,” Rajkumari says.

Is it any wonder, as her brother says, that Rajkumari may be losing her mind. The unlikely winner of an election, the source of inspiration for countless women and the mother of a promising young girl is going mad in a dusty corner of Uttar Pradesh.

But just as her success wasn’t hers alone, her breakdown would be hard blow to the idea of a fairer, more just society.

RSS'S ANTI-DALIT 'SECRET CIRCULAR'

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RSS'S ANTI-DALIT 'SECRET CIRCULAR'

That Hindutva fundamentally aims at the preservation of the Brahminical system, based as it is on the systematic exploitation of the Dalit-Bahujan majority, has been pointed out by numerous scholars, based on a close examination of RSS policies and statements. I recently came across a fascinating study of Hindutva, which, unfortunately, does not seem to have received the attention that it deserves. ‘Saffron Fascism’ by Shyam Chand, is a brilliant and incisive critique of the Hindutva project. Shyam Chand was a member of the Haryana Legislative Assembly for several years, and served over time as minister of various departments, including excise, taxation, urban development, food and supplies, and social welfare.

The book carries excerpts of what Shyam Chand calls a secret circular sent out by the RSS to its preachers. It clearly indicates the sinister Brahminical strategy of using the Dalit-Bahujans to attack the Muslims and Christians, aiming to keep the Dalit-Bahujans under the permanent slavery of the ‘upper’ castes.  I am reproducing this section here [taken from pp.143-44 of the book].

Excerpts from the Secret Circular No.411 issued by the RSS:

[…] Scheduled Castes and Other Backward Classes are to be recruited to the party so as to increase the volunteers to fight against the Ambedkarites and Mussalmans.

Hindutva should be preached with a vengeance among physicians and pharmacists so that, with their help, time expired [sic.] and spurious medicines might be distributed amongst the Scheduled Castes, Mussalmans and Scheduled Tribes. The newborn infants of Shudras, Ati-Shudras, Mussalmans, Christians and the like should be crippled by administering injections to them. To this end, there should be a show of blood-donation camps.

Encouragement and instigation should be carried on [sic.] more vigorously so that the womenfolk of Scheduled Castes, Mussalmans and Christians live by prostitution.

Plans should be made more fool-proof so that the people of the Scheduled Castes, Backward Classes, Musslamans and Christians, especially the Ambedkarites, become crippled by taking in [sic.] harmful eatables.

Special attention should be given to the students of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes so as to make them read the history written according to our dictates.

During riots the women of Mussalmans and Scheduled Castes should be gang-raped. Friends and acquaintances cannot be spared. The work should proceed on the Surat model.

Publication of writings against Mussalmans, Christians, Buddhists and Ambedkarites should be accelerated. Essays and writings should be published in such a way as to prove that Ashoka was opposed to the Aryans.

All literature opposed to Hindus and Brahmins are [sic.] to be destroyed. Dalits, Mussalmans, Christians and Ambedkarites should be searched out. Care should be taken to see that this literature do [sic.] not reach public places. Hindu literature is to apply [sic.] to the Backward Classes and Ambedkarites.

The demand by the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes for filling in the backlog vacancies in services shall by no means be met. Watch should be kept to see that their demands for entry and promotion in government, non-government or semi-government institutions are to be rejected and their service records are destroyed with damaging reports.

Measures should be taken to make the prejudices amongst Scheduled Castes and Backward people more deep-rooted. To this end, help must be taken from saints and ascetics.

Attacks should be started with vigour against equality, preaching communists [sic.], Ambedkarites, Islamic teachers, Christian missionaries and neighbours [?].

Assaults should be made on Ambedkar’s statues with greater efforts.

Dalit and Muslim writers are to be recruited to the party and by them the essays and literature opposed to the Dalits, Ambedkarites and Mussalmans written and preached. Attention is to be paid to see that these writings are properly edited and preached [sic.].


Those opposed to Hindutva are to be murdered through false encounters. For this work the help of the police and semi-military [sic.] forces should always be taken.

“Dalits are not definitely a block, and there is an intellectual blossom,” Kancha Ilaiah

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“Dalits are not definitely a block, and there is an intellectual blossom,” Kancha Ilaiah

Professor Kancha Ilaiah had well predicted that Narendra Modi would become the next Prime Minister under BJP, and he has also been instrumental in raising criticism on how Indian Left failed to understand the caste question. After the parliament elections, he described how the caste equations has been used in the country by the BJP. As soon as the BJP came into power, many decisions have already been taken by the ruling government, which will have far reaching consequences on the lives of dalits, adivasis, Muslims and Bahujans. In this context, Ajmal Khan and Anish engaged in conversation with Kancha Ilaiah, writer, a dalit rights activist and former Professor and head of the Political Science department at the Osmania University, Hyderabad, on contemporary politics in India, particularly on Muslim, Dalit and Bahujan politics. He argues, that Muslims will have to form their own national party or a national coalition of all the Muslim parties by retaining their political and social identity.

We have been talking about Beef and Beef ban, especially after Maharashtra government’s decision to ban beef completely. However, one important decision that didn't get much public attention was the Maharashtra government's decision to scrap the five % reservation for Muslims in education and employment. What are your thoughts on this?

Kancha Ilaiah (TCN file photo)

Yes, The Mumbai High Court had stayed the proposal for 5% reservation for Muslims and 15 % Marathas’. But the court had allowed quota for Muslims in state-owned or aided educational institutions, saying that, the community suffers from high dropout rate and the youth in the community need to be brought under mainstream education. On Maratha reservation, the court had observed that the community was a socially advanced and prestigious community. They (BJP) seem to think that they will go to the Supreme Court for Marathas but not for Muslims. The argument of BJP is that the caste will disappear once people convert into other religions.

According to BJP and RSS, there is no caste among the non-Hindus like Muslims and Christians. The argument for Muslims is that, whether Sachar Committee, Dr Mehmoodur Rehman Committee in Maharashtra or people like me who always speak for the need of reservation for Muslims – casteis a very historical thing, generationally people carry caste. If somebody converts to Islam,his or her occupational status does not immediately change. Of course, their name changes, their access to God changes, they get to read Quran etc. When a Hindu barber converts to Islam, his occupational status does not change immediately, everything else changes,the occupational status doesn't change easily. Therefore, I argue that Muslims should be given reservation on the basis of their caste and occupational identity considering the backwardness. Reservation in education is also important, here Muslims are a community that is historically now being treated after the partition as second-class citizens, and there is double oppression. Muslims first, as the second-class Indian citizens, and then, the oppression according to their caste status.

BJP recently seems to have argued in the court that, Muslims and Christians should not be given reservation and reservation is Hindu specific. If that is the case already, Buddhists and Sikhs are getting eservation and Buddhists and Sikhs say that they have nothing to do with Hinduism and they are not Hindus. Then how does BJP explain this?

Some of the Hindu nationalists argue that Buddhism and Sikhism are also part of Hinduism?

Yes, even Narendra Modi says that. They (Hindus) respect Buddha, Buddha is their ancient god etc.but Buddhist are saying, we are not Hindus and we have nothing do with Hinduism. If Buddhism is like Hinduism, then Buddhism abolishes caste within itself, untouchable can become monks and even Vihara heads. In Hinduism, it is not possible, we all know. So how can they say that Buddhism and Hinduism are one and the same?

Sikhismalso, yes some streams of Hinduism are there, but it is not the same, they have a Guru Granth, everybody can read it, all of them have one food cultural practice. If that is the case, why are RSS, VHP and other organizations talking about vegetarianism, which is only a Brahmin-Baniya food practice? It has never been all caste practice, so they seem to actually be practicing Brahmanism and projecting as Hinduism as monolithic religion, which is not true.

We have seen the trend of Hindu right wing forces co-opting of everything and everyone after the new government came to the power. Will they be able to co-opt everyone?

Yes, BJP and Hindu Right require to co-opt certain things. Once they have come to power, if they behave as they behaved earlier, than their legitimacy to rule the country will go. Muslims are not a small community, they need somebody to negotiate with Muslims. They need negotiation without giving Muslims the substantial share, ok! If they want to give equal share to Muslims in all respects than that would have been a different thing.

Here, BJP wants Muslims to be with them without giving substantial share from state and society; they are using different tactics (for it). Of course, in appointments of University heads and other strategic positions, they have to find someone who is palatable to them, who works for them. There are positions in Universities and other places where persons from only the Muslim community has to be appointed. So, for that they will try to co-opt several sections. They have already co-opted many sections of Muslims and admitting a lot of Muslims into the BJP.

There is also a section of Muslims who think that, ok, if they go there and live a normal life, if they get some political benefit, or at least, if there is no communal riots. But, we will have to see what implications this will have for the larger community’s life. Right now, Muslim share in power has come down, Muslim parliamentary share has come down. How much Muslim share is there in business and other sectors is an issue, because Muslims do not have much share in agriculture. They survive largely on urban informal economy. But they (BJP) will attempt to co-opt even Muslims.

Now, the Maharashtra government is saying that they will send Christians for pilgrimage, government will finance them. But Christians are saying they don't want anyone to send them for pilgrimage, they say, instead they want right to propagate their religion, they are asking for security and protection. BJP is in a real contradiction now. Let’s see what happens, it’s not like Vajpayee’s times. During his time, it was a coalition government. Some unpleasant things had happened then also, but now they are in full power and they are straight away coming on minorities.

How do you see the Muslim politics in this context?

See, the Muslim political leadership is really weak, those who existed as Muslim leaders in the Congress were not connected to the poor and marginalized Muslim masses. The mass Muslim leadership did not get politicized. Recently MIM is a party which is trying to spread across the country. Asaduddin Owaisi is definitely a modern Muslim leader in India. Neither Congress nor BJP want a leader like him, who organizes his own people. So, in my view, a time will come when Muslims will have to form their own national party or a national coalition of all the Muslim parties by retaining their political and social identity. That will give them much more strength than working from within the other parties. They tried that in Congress, and except Abul Kalam Azad, I don't think anybody else got significant space in the Congress system. There may be ministers but they were not having significant powers.

In one of your interviews, you said Nehru had used Ambedkar at the same time and thrown out when his role was over.

My re-reading of early independent days is that, Jawaharlal Nehru had global vision and western education, who was also a model leader in many ways. If Dr Ambedkar would not have been allowed to become the chairman of Constitution Drafting Committee, the Constitution might have had many loopholes. Only Ambedkar could work out that kind of a Constitution.

If Nehru was not allowed to be first Prime Minister, then who would have been the real ruling person at that time? Gandhi's role in administrationwas minimal, Gandhi agreed upon Ambedkar's name to be the chairman of drafting committee, Gandhi said he should play a key role and Nehru supported and he became chairman of the drafting committee. That has really helped the nation. The combination of Nehru being the first Prime Minister and Ambedkar heading the drafting committee of the Constitution created a positive situation to experiment the adult franchise, it is not that easy to experiment adult franchise in an illiterate country like India. If Shyamaprasad Mukherjee or Sardar Vallabhai Patel or someone else from right wing would have been allowed to become the first Prime Minister, India would have ended up in dictatorship. So the so called Patel's legacy should not be taken seriously by people like us.

Is that the reason why Patel is getting much more importance now a days?

Yes, they will give lot of prominence to Patel. Firstly he is a Gujarati and Modi might also be considering him as a Shudra and he has also used the military force. So, there are certain combinations in him which are liked by RSS and VHP. But what would have been the situation of the country if Sardar Vallabhai Patel would have been the first Prime Minister? If he were to be the first Prime Minister perhaps KM Munshi, during that time, would have been appointed the chairman of the drafting committee of the Constitution, then we need not say what would have been the situation. India would have been Hindustan in the likeness of present day Pakistan.

You have been arguing that the Western theories will not fit for our realities and we have to work out our own theories. How will someone expect to work out one’s own theory when the theory building process itself is fully controlled by the Brahmins and the upper castes?

Yes, my strong belief is that, if all Indian children are given same quality education, preferably in English language, given the vast expansive space that we have, the kind of experience that rural children gain, the kind of exposure that they have with nature, production and so on, we would produce better intellectuals. India is capable of producing indigenous theory, which can be used by the rest of the world.

I don't mean any indigenous theory only we can use, but theories that emerge out of social practices, social convergences, social changes. Indians are capable of producing new books and theories which even other countries are not able to. Buddha is an example, he constructed a religion, he formed Sanghas; there is so much literature around it. The world is now using it. China, Japan Korea, all are using it. For example, two prophets came from Asia – Jesuscame from Israel and Muhammad came from Arabia. It’s not that, the world is against Asian thinkers but Brahmanical forces didn't produce such talent and a God who could be worshiped by the whole world. The only god India produced is Buddha, the world is willing to engage with him. So my feeling is that, Indian social sciences should examine the strength of the native social thinking. After all, we are a big society when compared with Europe. We have lot of new ideas, the only thing is that we should read, write and ask questions. In all my writings I make an attempt not to imitate anyone but to produce original thoughts from our own lives.

People like Amdekar become central even within the right wing discourses. So how difficult it is for the people like you to defend yourself?Because, you all created another kind of knowledge which challenged the dominance of upper castes and the nature of Hindu religion.

Yes, it is a difficult struggle. When I wrote ‘Why I Am Not a Hindu’ there was a lot of opposition, backlash, criticism and even threats. But luckily the Dalit movements extended their support to me and the Bahujan Samaj Party was almost in power in Uttar Pradesh. I managed to get the support from within the civil society also in this regard. Also, either for Mahatma Phule or Ambedkar and people like me, we all took to very non-violent form of dissent, we took up that line. After all, historically India has the tradition of non-violence. The dalits/backward castes never fought with upper castes with violence. And Buddhism, which emerged here, also created a space with a theory of ‘Middle Path’ (Madhya Marga). Hence Buddhism became a big cushion for people like Phule, Ambedkar and even for me, because when I wrote my book ‘God as a Political Philosopher’ I had to struggle a lot, going back to the ancient texts and comparing them withWestern thinkers, Indian Brahminic thinkers like Kautilya and Manu.

So we all are positioned in terms of reform, but even that was not acceptable to the Brahminical forces. There were many attempts to suppress my voice in the Osmania University. Even now some sections of people want my writings and speeches to be banned.

I think, we should create new knowledge, sometimes you may risk. (But) this risk factor cannot completely be ruled out. I think it is a social reform struggle. Luckily, first Buddha carried out, then came Jyotibha Phule, then Ambedkar, Periyar, Kanshiram have also done some kind of serious work. So now the Brahminical forces are on defensive mode otherwise there would have been more and more violence. They are basically the worshippers of violence, but when it comes to moral and ethical issues, the Buddhist morality has a very strong base.

Does the electoral politics played by BJP possess a direct threat to small/regional parties, how do you see this whole dynamics of state making?

Yes, there is, you are right. One is that the BJP putting Narendra Modi with a specific OBC identity in our national politics as a Prime Ministerial candidate. Congress never fielded either an OBC or a Dalit candidate forthe post of the PM. BJP put up such a candidate with his own ambitions and organizational base. So, they came to power in the Center. Now they are gradually coming into power in different states, but there, they are also compromising and they are also going for manipulative methods.

In Maharashtra’s case, they were thinking that they would not come to power (as) Shiv Sena was weakened after the Lok Sabha elections. Though BJP could not come into power on its own but now they are the ruling party. In Jammu and Kashmir, PDP aligned with BJP, and the PDP seems to think that Modi’s approach is different from RSS. Modi wants to carry some history with him, that Kashmir he cannot leave behind, so let it be and PDP should go for a compromise. They will try with this model, if the PDP model works. Well, they will say that we solved the problem.

In any case, they are trying to expand, but where they are failing is on the front of talks with Christianity. Their attacks on churches is giving a badimpression of BJP across the globe. If investment does not come, then Modi’s development agenda itself will be in a crisis.

So they have not calculated the implications of attacking Christians or forcing them to reconvert. That is where the President of America had to say that religious freedom is universal in nature, it cannot be violated. During the BJP’s rule,it will globalise the caste and untouchability issue much more. If they want to address it, reconcile and tell the Brahmins and other priestly communities that you have to give equality to all people whom you define as ‘Hindu’, then may be Hinduism may reform.

I find problem with their books in this regard, things like God created human beings hierarchically. I think these kinds of writings in the texts itself pose challenges, for this, either they have to delete it or reject it. In any case, these five years will be a testing period.Because, this is the first time they got power on their own. If they create social tensions, if they go after people, the beef ban has created a strong negative feeling among the people, that signal is not going to keep quite.If they don’t allow the power to slip out of their hands, they will go for some time like this and then, they may try to transform and change themselves. Or, if they use this status for establishing Hindu Rashtra, then there will be a huge ‘civil war’ that I have been talking about for some time now. It all depends on their approach in the next four years. At this stage, it is very difficult to predict.

Simplenumbers in Parliament does not make any sense. Rajiv Gandhi had much more numbers but he could not sustain.

If this is the case, how do you look at parties such as AAP and other regional parties?

If small regional parties don’t use powerful tools such as English education and integrate their thinking with national level and give up their family control on parties, BJP will swallow them. That is possible. Most of these regional parties are family-oriented parties except BSP. But BSP, its leader Mayawati, did not show the required courage and confidence in handling the post-election crisis. She is not building up SC-OBC unity; she is also not building up the leadership in all stages.

I think the parties like APP will remain as a regional party, I don’t think that they can really challenge the BJP. The real challenge should be from the Congress and other political forces united, particularly the Leftists. The Leftists are in terms of caste, are with the upper caste and in terms of class they say that they are with working class. So the Left has absolutely failed in understanding the caste structure/religion in this country.

In this context how do you see the caste annihilation programmes proposed by Leftist organizations such as Communist Party of India (Maoist)?

No, they would not have a major role in annihilation of caste. Annihilation of caste was the agenda of Ambedkar but in those days dalits were not very well educated. Now dalits want to survive, they need identity and power. Among dalit leaders there is hunger for power. They are making alliances with parties such as BJP and Shiv Sena, leaders like Ramvilas Paswan and Athawale are best examples.So, the power without thinking about social reforms, ideological struggles and concrete writing of new theoretical formulations is not useful. I think BJP can finish them off but if they take them in, they don't get any prominence. I have not seen any role for Ramvilas Paswan and Athawale after forming of the new government. Paswan has just become as an insignificant minister. You see only a few ministers nationally visible like Arun Jaitly, NirmalaSeetharaman, Smriti Irani, Ravi Shankar Prasad, Peeyush Goyal. Where is Ram Vilas Paswan who played such a role? So, the dalit leaders are working with them only for power. I think it is self-degradation. I don’t want to see dalit leaders suffer that kind of self-degradation.

Recently,dalit leader Jitan Ram Mahji has been sacked from the post of CM paving the way for Nitish Kumar to take up the same post. In Telengana, the ruling party TRS leadership was criticized for betraying dalits. So how do you see these political upheavals?

This dialogue will go on. Dalits are not definitely a block, and there is an intellectual blossom. All of us came together and made these issues international; it went to the US Congress, British Parliament, European Union etc. So through internationalization of caste, untouchability and women trafficking and so on, we will have to have impact on this new style. But OBCs do not have that visible space, whereas OBCs have state power. Dalits do not have state power, except Mayawati, there is no other dalit leader, who could become Chief Minister on her own.

So this is a phase where all new experiments are taking place and BJP has given up the classical demand that Hindu-Brahmin-Kshatriya should rule. They have tried it with Vajpayee, but they seem to have shifted from that stand and brought a so called lower caste person as the prime ministerial candidate and now he is the Prime Minister. Within the next four to five years there will be a new combination of political forces; alliances and re-alliances will takes place, so we could see some kind of new unfolding is likely to happen.

Mulayam Singh is saying that he doesn't mind joining Congress, we haveto fight it. In 2002, when I predicted that Narendra Modi would become the Prime Minister if the Congress and Left behave in the same way, theydidn't take it seriously, and in reality, Modi became the PM of India. From here, where does it go? Already the negative results are coming out. Maharashtra banning beef and Haryana banning beef, it will definitely create crisis in agriculture.

Now, Democratic Youth Federation of India (DYFI) is also trying to organize beef festivals across the country to challenge the ban. But the discourse on food culture initiated by dalits/ OBCs especially students in academic institutions was ideological in nature. They articulated it in a distinct way and it was not just about the intervention of state on the food choice of citizens. So what do you think about these Leftist interventions?

The Left has committed a blunder earlier by not giving the power positions to dalits and OBCs. The upper caste hang on to the power in the party. But now, after communal party like BJP,there is re-working on the issue of caste, and then there is lots of debates and writings coming from the new intellectuals from dalit/OBC background. So, the Left leadership is now rethinking its position.

On food culture, it is totally different. After Osmania beef issue came up, they also fed participants with beef during the party Congress recently in Telengana. I think, some positive steps have been taken by them, but yet, the leadership remains the same. My feeling is that we should really take the Leftist along with us, though they are castiest, despite their limitations, it is better to take them along because they have at least a theoretical position.

In terms of financial corruption, they are not very corrupt. Let us negotiate with them, let us have a healthy relationship with them. Dalits, OBC’s and the women intellectuals should come together. Even for the feminist discourse, the Leftists opposed it initially. (But) later they accommodated it.Now they are ready to debate cultural rights, food culture and so on. So, we need to educate the Leftists more and more and communist can re-educate us more through Marxism, Leninism, etc. They are re-thinking now. In CPIM when the road blocks like Prakash Karat and Sitaram Yechuri go, if they do away, may be some changes will come. I feel, we should work in friendly relations with the Communists. I think it’s inevitable and lets us hope something better will emerge.

Despite the strong dalit movement in Maharashtra atrocities against Dalits continues?

Atrocities also take place when oppressed fight for equality and equal rights, the upper caste get enraged with this. Secondly, atrocity happens because upper caste can commit atrocity and get away. It is like, there is resistance to rape. There are state battles but there is also response to this resistance. So it’s a transitory situation in a culture of rape and religious relationships which are projected into sexual relations and so on.

Caste group and cultural relationships are also changing. There are castes that get mobility through education and employment. There are also castes, their status remains constant or goes down. When one caste’s status increases due to education and employment, the other gets angry with them and fights emerges between them. They are competing within themselves. Today dalits are not competing with Brahmins, Baniyas and other traditional capitalist. If Mahars are growing, the Matangs get angry, this is a transitory phase.

See, during British period, the Brahmins fought more severely among themselves than they fought others, even than with British. They gotempowered by that. So, my point is that, let each dalits, Bahujan groups compete with each other among themselves and to others.Identities do not change easily and now-a-days dalit issues are being found in most of the political parties’ discussions and documents. This is a positive change.

The writings and creative interventions of Dalit-Bahujan intellectuals have contributed to this. It’s important that we need to engage in the thought process and creating more books of our own. It’s not that dalits, adivasis and backwards too could not fight with upper castes and Brahmanism, but they could not fight with their brains. They could not fight with their writings and books. Tukaram was told to burn his books in those days, who can remove my books “Why I am not a Hindu" from Internet today? More critical writings and thinking should be produced by the youth and students and I am hopeful about these new generations.